Question:
universal health care: is this argument flawed?
316
2008-02-25 16:27:18 UTC
universal health care: bad idea because the taxes to pay for it will be put on big businesses that will lay off workers and lower wages to pay for these taxes, a detrimental effect on the economy.



also has it worked or failed in other countries? please use historical evidence, thanks.
Fifteen answers:
Vantage Point
2008-02-29 11:11:21 UTC
FIRSTAM2 's answer is somewhat incomplete. UHC's concept is to provide some sort of affordable health care to cover all Americans. It is a very good campaign slogan that gets everyones attention today.

UHC as proposed by DEMs will attempt to lower the cost. FIRSTAM2 was quick to point out glaring wait time in Canada and Britain. There is no guarantee that ours will be better than Germany's or England's or Canada's or France.s UHC. We have people's attention caught. This momentum (people's involvement) can really turn into a positive thing. Bringing about a working American Health Care Program.

It is not a bad idea. It will trim the fat off from the corrupt and scandal ridden HMO's (Health CAre Industry).
anonymous
2008-02-26 00:50:06 UTC
Some of the ideas associated with universal health care are flawed. One, the major one, is that it decreases the impetus to improve health care or removes the incentive to put personal incentives into finding "cures" because the monetary reward isn't there and isn't encouraged by medical management. Not that medical professionals are "only in it for the money," but that the levening of the system rewards mediocre work as well as brilliant work.



Another big problem is that many "consumers" of health care (usually older widows, actually) use the system simply to relieve loneliness and go to the doctor for every little ache and pain just for someone to talk to and take valuable time away from people who have serious medical problems.



Another big problem is that anything that is free, or nearly so, is overused. Delays in treatment result. This a an universal problem and probably the most serious one in a "free" health care ststem.



On the other side of the argument, people who cannot easily afford medical treatment tend to go too long before their problem is diagnosed and can still be corrected. Easy access to care saves lives.
Grand Pooba
2008-02-26 01:26:35 UTC
This argument is flawed, because it is based on the assumption that by covering the people that are now not covered, businesses and/or tax payers will have to pick up the cost for that.



The flaw in the logic is this fact that is often overlooked: Everyone in the country gets health care now when they are sick, but not all are signed up for health insurance. When the uninsured get sick now, they go to county or state hospitals and/or clinics and get health care paid for by the rest of us.



So universal health care should actually save money by getting the uninsured to pay into the system in exchange for being able to participate in better care options. If these folks start paying premiums, then that will help reduce the burden on everyone else. Of course, since many of the uninsured are that way because they can't afford the premiums, there would be some tax increase to pay for subsidies, but that should be offset by the savings to everyone from having these people actually get the health care they need, instead of ending up in the emergency room, where we all pay for their care.
anonymous
2008-02-26 00:38:57 UTC
It's a bad idea, but that isn't the reason. Yes, there would be a huge tax burden, but it would be placed mostly on individuals, who pay the bulk of taxes collected. The real flaw in the scheme is that, with no cost to individuals for health care, the demand skyrockets, to the point where some rationing system is required. The notorious example is Canada, where if you need a medical procedure, you come to the US to get it. If the US had the same system, where would we go for treatment?
caliguy_30
2008-02-26 00:37:46 UTC
Universal health care has its advantages and inconvenient. It has worked in many nations and still does. Many here cry about the fact that it would bring delay in seeing doctors or having tests done etc ... i worked in the medical field and so does my wife ... referrals take over two weeks and tests and surgeries take sometimes a month to be scheduled ... so i say bologna we already wait ... health care as it is today in the US is NOT fast service.

Also it will cost money to install the universal health care system but i don;t think it will cost businesses what will happen is that many programs in place will be eliminated and money going to lets say the law protecting children from abuse for example will be eliminated and those funds transferred to the new health care system.

The money HAS to come from somewhere ... where from that is the question.

So yes it can work, no it won't be perfect, and yes it will cost us somehow ... we will lose and sacrifice somethings to get the universal health care.
Eulalia
2008-02-26 00:44:43 UTC
I come from a country that has universal healthcare. Universal health care is not socialized medicine and is not funded with your tax dollar. It's been working in France, in Germany, and in Russia. I grew up in Germany and I have to say that it works just like here--only with the difference that you have insurance. You don't have to worry about medical bills except for co-payments, such as hospital stay and prescriptions. In addition to that let me tell you this> In Germany, if the doctor's office is closed(nights and weekends, holidays)and you need medical help fast, then all you have to do is pick up the phone and call the number--they will send a doctor to you right away. I find it very shameful that the pharmarceutical industry and the health care industry try to portray universal health care as social medicine. In fact, the system which sends doctors to people's houses at nights and weekends is cost effective---there is no need to pay the ambulance and emergency room with their staff--the doctor gets paid. And if that emergency doctor decides that you have to be hospitalized he/she will make sure that an ambulance gets called right away to pick you up and bring you to the hospital...Universal health care is one thing that improves the quality of life for people drastically--but of course, republicans don't want that--why would they? They have the best health care plans from the government....
?
2008-02-26 00:35:55 UTC
It will be a disaster, taxes will sky rocket. Also why must the government always use the most complex solution, whatever happened to the simplest solution is the best solution. Specific reforms can be passed that will help to drastically reduce costs such as tort reform. And with some minor Medicare changes we can cover everyone. (though i still dont see why healthcare is a right) And its not like the feds have the greatest tack record with large national programs ex FEMA, TSA, the list goes on
Livie
2008-02-26 00:36:17 UTC
BAD IDEA. from a family of doctors i say from experience and from things ive heard from my relatives, it doesnt make anything easier on the doctor's side. In canada, for example, they have universal healthcare and though it is cheaper to get meds from there because of this system of healthcare it is VERY hard to see a doctor quickly. Waiting lines are off the chart and put the doctors under a lot of stress, not that a doctor's job isnt alrady stressful or anything. This forces a lot of doctors to join forces and be flexible with who they see with what ailment, out of their element they are now forced to treat people blindly. A plastic surgeon may be attempting to treat someone with severe acne, though this is possible to some degree a plastic surgeon may have no idea how to prescribe the correct medication for this problem.



Maybe seeming like a good idea. Not so good short term or long term.
Me
2008-02-26 00:31:16 UTC
Universal health care, or universal healthcare, is a government effort intended to extend health care coverage to all citizens, and sometimes permanent residents, of a governmental region. Universal health care programs vary widely in their structure and funding mechanisms, particularly the degree to which they are publicly funded. Typically, most health care costs are met by the population via compulsory health insurance or taxation, or a combination of both.



Universal health care systems require government involvement, typically in the forms of enacting legislation, mandates and regulation. In some cases, government involvement also includes directly managing the health care system, but many countries use mixed public-private systems to deliver universal health care.



In the 1880s, most citizens in Germany became covered under the mandatory health care system championed by Otto von Bismarck. The National Health Service (NHS), established in the United Kingdom in 1948, was the world's first universal health care system provided by government. Universal health care is provided in most developed countries and in many developing countries. According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not provide universal health care.



Therefore, since other countries have been able to utilize universal health care efficiently, the US should not have too much of a problem doing so either.
ConcernedCitizen
2008-02-26 00:33:23 UTC
It's flawed in two ways:



1) You're assuming that it will cost more than current government programs, but nothing could be more outrageous than the Republicans' rampant overspending.



2) No one has said that all of the tax money to pay for it will come from corporations, so that's another unwarranted assumption.
Steve R
2008-02-26 00:30:38 UTC
I think that it is worth it

Especially for people with many health problems

Imagine all of the families that have to pay all of their money just for hospital bills
anonymous
2008-02-26 00:31:24 UTC
Historically, the U.S. is spending its extra dough on government corruption, congresspeople's pensions and healthcare, wars and foreign aid and maybe other countries keep the money more close to home? Just a guess...Watch Michael Moore's movie Sicko to see how well it works in Canada, England, and France (and also Cuba...??)
?
2008-02-26 00:31:20 UTC
Well UHC is a double bladed sword, It does raise taxes but it can work very well, examples are Germany, Canada, and it also was one of the high points of the USSR
Ryu C
2008-02-26 00:30:51 UTC
Seems to work Just fine in Japan
firstam2008
2008-02-26 11:41:39 UTC
Ultimately of course business will be taxed which will affect wages, employment, and the costs to the consumer as well as making it harder for us to compete globally because already our standard of living means our production costs are higher than most countries.



UHC has NOT worked and can't--it violates principles of economics and human nature. When something is perceived as free then SOME will waste it--with limited docs, meds, hospital beds, etc. those with TRUE needs are shoved out by pigs who exaggerate every sniffle.



Canadian doc who studies world health care, and like 500 of his Canadian colleagues a year, moved to the US from the "UHC paradise" of Canada:

"...Another sign of transformation: Canadian doctors, long silent on the health-care system’s problems, are starting to speak up. Last August, they voted Brian Day president of their national association. A former socialist who counts Fidel Castro as a personal acquaintance, Day has nevertheless become perhaps the most vocal critic of Canadian public health care, having opened his own private surgery center as a remedy for long waiting lists and then challenged the government to shut him down. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week,” he fumed to the New York Times, “and in which humans can wait two to three years.”



And now even Canadian governments are looking to the private sector to shrink the waiting lists. Day’s clinic, for instance, handles workers’-compensation cases for employees of both public and private corporations. In British Columbia, private clinics perform roughly 80 percent of government-funded diagnostic testing. In Ontario, where fealty to socialized medicine has always been strong, the government recently hired a private firm to staff a rural hospital’s emergency room.



This privatizing trend is reaching Europe, too. Britain’s government-run health care dates back to the 1940s. Yet the Labour Party—which originally created the National Health Service and used to bristle at the suggestion of private medicine, dismissing it as “Americanization”—now openly favors privatization. Sir William Wells, a senior British health official, recently said: “The big trouble with a state monopoly is that it builds in massive inefficiencies and inward-looking culture.” Last year, the private sector provided about 5 percent of Britain’s nonemergency procedures; Labour aims to triple that percentage by 2008. The Labour government also works to voucherize certain surgeries, offering patients a choice of four providers, at least one private. And in a recent move, the government will contract out some primary care services, perhaps to American firms such as UnitedHealth Group and Kaiser Permanente.



Sweden’s government, after the completion of the latest round of privatizations, will be contracting out some 80 percent of Stockholm’s primary care and 40 percent of its total health services, including one of the city’s largest hospitals. Since the fall of Communism, Slovakia has looked to liberalize its state-run system, introducing co-payments and privatizations. And modest market reforms have begun in Germany: increasing co-pays, enhancing insurance competition, and turning state enterprises over to the private sector (within a decade, only a minority of German hospitals will remain under state control). It’s important to note that change in these countries is slow and gradual—market reforms remain controversial. But if the United States was once the exception for viewing a vibrant private sector in health care as essential, it is so no longer."

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html



Read the entire long article for more facts on UHC which Dems don't want you to know. Also consider these facts:

The NHS, the oldest system, is in Britain:

"Staff are being laid off, and deficits are at an all time high (£1.07bn for 2005-2006)” (Hazel Blears, Labour Party Chair and Minister Without Portfolio, labourachievements.blogspot.com/2006/08/23-investment-in-nhs.html).

In the National Review Online article, Coburn & Herzlinger state “more than 20,000 Brits would not have died from cancer in the U.S.” Just recently Alex Smallwood of the BMA (British Medical Association) was quoted in the Scotsman as saying: “’Rationing is reduction in choice. Rationing has become a necessary evil. We need to formalise rationing to prevent an unregulated, widening, postcode-lottery of care. Government no longer has a choice.’” (Moss, “NHS rationing is ‘necessary evil,’ says doctors,” 26 June 2007).



"Comparing Canada with other industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) that provide universal access to health care, a study released by The Fraser Institute in May revealed that Canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

...

In 1999, Richard F. Davies, MD, described how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, 71 patients died before surgery and another "121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery;" 44 left Ontario and had their CABG elsewhere, such as in the USA. In other words, 192 people either died or were too sick to have surgery before they worked their way to the front of the waiting line.

One of the reasons Canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.





As time passes, however, more and more Canadians are confronted by the halting quality of their system when they face complex and expensive medical problems. They often cannot get timely or appropriate care for bone fractures, prompt treatment for cancer, or non-emergency surgery such as hip replacements. Their doctors complain that they are unable to help them and the government pleads shortage of funds.

...

Canadian physician frustration with their inability to provide quality and timely care is resulting in a brain drain. According to one poll, one in three Canadian doctors is considering leaving the country. A doctor shortage looms, as the nation falls 500 doctors a year short of the 2,500 new physicians it needs to add each year to meet national health needs, according to Sally Pipes, a policy expert formerly with the Canadian Fraser Institute.

Another casualty of the lengthy waiting periods is Canada's much-vaunted equal access to medical treatment. Even though medical emergencies allow some people to jump ahead in the waiting line — making others wait longer — a survey published in the Annals of Internal Medicine medical journal found that more than 90 percent of heart specialists had "been involved in the care of a patient who received preferential access" to cardiac care based on non-medical reasons including the patient's social standing or personal connections with the treating physician."

Jewish World Review June 11, 2004 written by Dr. Cihak



AND

"The biggest Canadian fiscal drain comes from the single-payer medical system. "Current model of health-care delivery leading us down the path to financial ruin," states the lead editorial in the Calgary Sun. Health-care costs would consume 50% of Alberta's budget by 2016 (according to the Fraser Institute) or 2017 (according to Aon Consulting, a firm hired by the Alberta government). Health care would devour 100% of the provincial budget by 2030, if present trends continue.

...

An estimated 90,000 Canadians sought medical care outside their country in 2005. The cry "no two-tiered system" could be replaced by "set our patients free," stated a lead editorial (National Post 9/18/06)."

Jewish World Review Dec. 1, 2006 by Dr. Glueck



So why no total collapse yet? Because “illegal, for-profit health-service centers” have “proliferated” in Canada and are so accepted that the head of one became the president of the Canadian Medical Association (“Individual Freedom vs. Government Control,” 1 August 2007, nationalreview.com).



Japan doesn't fare any better:

"According to Japanese legislator Takashi Yamamoto, who was just diagnosed with cancer, "abandoned cancer refugees are roaming the Japanese archipelago." Patients are told they¹ll never get better, even when treatments exist, and many are not even informed of their diagnoses. Cancer mortality rates in Japan have been steadily climbing and are now more than 250 per 100,000, while U.S. rates are now around 180 per 100,000. (Glueck, “Far East illustrates the limitations and dangers of universal health care,” 26 January 2007, jewishworldreview.com)



Sweden:

A May 2007 article the National Center for Public Policy Research ran called “Sweden’s Single-Payer Health System Provides a Warning to Other Nations” (Hogberg, nationalcenter.org) indicates that this government with good GDP ($31,600) and relatively low unemployment (5.6 percent) had a single-payer system for much of the 20th century. They covered basically all health care costs and as a result, had to ration health care, and found themselves with waiting lists for both surgeries and doctor visits. In the 1990s, there was a move toward semi-privatization which reduced those problems, but they have re-emerged. In that author’s, view, the reforms were not permitted to work as they were not full-on free market ones.



The much lauded French system raises some questions as well. From their Embassy site


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